Podcast Episodes

Lisa Smith 0:58

Well, hello, welcome to Be.Make.Do. a soul|makers podcast where we explore what it takes to live out your call in the arts with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith here with my producer Dan ABH.

Dan ABH 1:11

Hello everyone.

Lisa Smith 1:13

And it is our passion to encourage you to become who you are created to be, make what you were created to make and do what you were created to do.

Lisa Smith 1:22

So this summer, we are exploring some of the questions that came out of the Wise Hearted Ones series in our previous podcast episodes, about the artist's call of Bezalel in Exodus. And don't forget the discussion guide is available on our website if you're interested in going deeper with that.

Lisa Smith 1:40

But today we are talking with Veronica Scarpellino of Goldfinch Leadership, to talk more practically about one of the issues we raised in that series, and that is, the challenges artists can face around measuring the impact of our work, and overcoming the obstacles that make us doubt. So I'm really excited to have Veronica with us here today. She is a formally trained coach and artist who incorporates creative sensibilities as a leadership and executive coach. She's the founder of Goldfinch Leadership, which supports small and mid-sized businesses, and creative professionals to leverage creative problem solving, emotional intelligence, and an ethical business sense. With over 20 years of immersive experience and formal coaching. She specializes in guiding professionals through transitions, emphasizing the transformative potential of creative thinking. So welcome, Veronica, you are the person, we definitely want to talk to you today. Thanks for being here.

Veronica Scarpellino 2:43

Thank you so much for inviting me, Lisa.

Lisa Smith 2:46

I was very excited to come across your work and the way that you integrate creative thinking and practices and really value that within business, but also the way that you're able to talk with creatives about the business that they do. So you kind of sit at a really unique vantage point, which is so so needed.

Veronica Scarpellino 3:11

Yeah, un-siloing between the idea of being in your studio and being at work is really important. Yeah. And also dispelling the myths that we have around what it means to be creative, and inviting more definitions and more people into that identity of being creative. Yeah, my one of my missions.

Lisa Smith 3:33

Well, okay, so one of the first things I was curious about was for you to tell us a little bit about the need that you saw that you see that led you to this current work that you've developed, I'm guessing you see a lot of people who feel stuck or dealt their impact, or just are facing challenges that seem overwhelming. I mean, is that something that you struggled with? Or you notice why is that so important for you personally?

Veronica Scarpellino 3:58

Yeah, and I'm really glad you started with those universal pains that we all feel, because regardless of whether you're in the medical industry, or a creative in design, or fine art, these are universal experiences that we all have. And so part of part of it was a personal journey for myself an unlearning of different definitions of ways of being and, you know, a sort of, you know, re-envisioning of what my own identity is.

Veronica Scarpellino 4:33

As a small child, I, I loved art I loved making, and it felt really fulfilling. But all around me, I had family members who were experts in all of their different fields, whether it was medical, or science and engineering, or in something that's more tangibly creative. And what was evident through my experiences with the his family members was that the doctor was also a painter. The science guy who was really into engineering, also love to build and cook and host parties. Another engineer was also amazing at drawing, building Legos, and solving problems. And so growing up, there was just this overarching creative experience.

Veronica Scarpellino 5:29

Then I get into college where I really start feeling the pinch of the siloing that happens, the the level of expertise, but also the, the exclusionary aspect of it, right, an artist is this and is not this. So I followed along, you know, as a student, this is what you do you take the advice of your, the experts in your field, but it was didn't quite sit right. And I never was able to identify that. Well flash forward, the early 2000s, I just moved to Philadelphia, and I was really making a go of being a fine artist. My medium was found object mixed media sculpture, things that were discarded, repurposing them, putting new life into them, giving them new meanings really gratifying. But I was also for years had been working in galleries and museums working with artists. And it was that peek behind the curtain that didn't really sit well with me. And I realized, sort of really the path that I want to take and being a professional artist. And it became an identity crisis, right? If I'm not an artist, who am I, what am I and, but I still didn't have an alternative.

Veronica Scarpellino 6:49

So I continued to support creative people, artists and creative businesses, founded my own company helping artists to stand up the systems that they needed to run it as a business. That led me into working with other creative businesses that were a little less artists, but more craftsmen. And that led me into working in higher education, helping artists and designers chart a career path. So kind of bringing things back together. And it was at that advent of discussing how to make a living as an artist, not just as visual artists, but as somebody with the more marketable skill set, where it really started to smack me in the face again about this unsiloing. And I became frustrated with how creative individuals could be exceptional in the studio. But when it came to something like envisioning their own career path and writing a resume even, they would shut down. I can't do this. When it's the same rules, it's the same structure, the same tactics translated into a different area. And so when I founded Goldfinch, leadership, one of the things I was very intentional about was not working exclusively with creative people who had a traditional creative output. But working with the mindset of so I don't care if you're an accountant, an engineer, right? A consultant, or coach, but there is a very creative processes involved in all of these fields, and helping both sides. The very artistically creative people identify how to apply those skills outside of the studio, and helping the very analytical expert the mindset, recognize what they're doing is doing already is creative, and how to apply that to other areas of their life where they're uncomfortable. It's incredibly gratifying, more so than the art making had been This was my new craft, my new medium. And my new identity shifted from being I am an artist to I am creative, which became way more empowering.

Lisa Smith 9:06

Interesting.

Veronica Scarpellino 9:07

Because if you're creative, when you're faced with that obstacle, when you're overwhelmed, you trust yourself to have the tools and the know how to figure it out. Right. And because of that iterative process that you take, when you're an artist, you try again, Plan B, learn from the mistake, prototyping iteration, and it is really empowering and a place to really make strong moves from.

Lisa Smith 9:37

Yeah, there's two things that popped out from... there's so many questions that actually are coming to mind as you're talking. But the first thing when you were talking about it, working as a found object artist and seeing things and then helping them to have new life and become something different, like I see the parallels between what you were doing as a visual artist and what you're doing now in your business. And I think that that is such a great example of what we talk about in the make what you were created to make, that it's not just the artifacts that you create, or that thing that you do, it has also to do with who you are, and, and the gifts and the way that you see the world and then that, that calling that piece of your calling will show up, you know, in lots of different ways over the course of your life and career. And you can understand that you're still being true to your calling. It's just manifesting in a different way, which is so typical for artists, right, you know, because you're always exploring something new. That's, that's what kind of keeps us energized in a way. It's cool to see that.

Veronica Scarpellino 10:48

I love that you spotlighted that, because I agree, you know repurposing things, collecting information, never knowing where you're going to use it, right. It's almost like I can save information and pass it along to those that need it, or a really important process and creative thinking is to be able to, to find innovative solutions. If you don't have the tools, or the right tools at your disposal to do that you can't move forward. A carpenter can't build a table without a hammer and a saw and in some form a binding element, right? Well, to create an solution, if you don't have an experience, a piece of knowledge or you know, that object to relate to, you don't have the tools to make those associations. I mean, some of the most amazing innovations in the world came from outside of the domain of expertise, right Velcro, came from looking at nature, a lot of that comes from nature, in fact, but the repurposing of ideas is one of the creative processes that I I work through with my clients.

Lisa Smith 12:01

Wow, I love that. Well, so you brought up probably the number one stress point for artists, which is how do we make a living as an artist, and that like, oh, I can't do marketing, or Yeah, I don't know how to write an artist statement or the you know, it's just so overwhelming to me. But you said, well, they are you already have the skills? What could you talk a little bit more about that just briefly to kind of whet our appetite?

Veronica Scarpellino 12:28

Sure. So one of the first steps and I still battle with this. So this is not, it's not like I found the solution. And I've got an easy pathway in front of me. But one of the one of the mindsets that you can take is that the creative process unfolds in all of these areas. And if you're creative, you can do it in these other areas. So whether it's sales or marketing, part of it is finding the right way of framing it for yourself that feels authentic, and leans into your strengths. And where you're not strong. You're recognizing that and filling those gaps in one form or another, hiring somebody, partnering, using a tool, right? Those are great solutions. But let's say for example, that in the studio, you're really comfortable with the idea of setting constraints for yourself. Because if you if you're told that you can make any piece of art you want in any medium, any topic, any colors. There's no budget, spend what you need. Oh, and take as long as you need to do it. That's pretty paralyzing. Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Smith 13:45

I was like freeze. Right? Sounds great. But it's freeze.

Veronica Scarpellino 13:49

But if you put in if you have constraints, or you put in false constraints of No, it has to be of this size, this medium, these colors, one topic, and I have a week to do it. And I also have $10. It might seem counterintuitive, but those constraints end up creating the atmosphere for immense creative freedom. Yeah. And so setting constraints is a tactic. It's a creative, it's a creative thinking tactic that can be applied in other areas, too. So when you're overwhelmed by marketing, pick one audience member and by that I mean, an individual pick a person to speak to, right? What's the one message that you want to get across? Can you do it in one paragraph, right. And you have one hour to put this together. And then walk away just like you do in the studio. Walk away, come back with fresh eyes, right and set new constraints.15 minutes to sit down and work on this.

Dan ABH 14:55

Yeah, I'm writing. I'm running so many notes down right now.

Veronica Scarpellino 15:00

But that's just one tactic that you can borrow from your studio work and apply to another area of your business.

Lisa Smith 15:07

Yeah, that's so great. I think that's really important too. I mean, that kind of gets to something else, which also goes into this conversation, understanding and valuing what creativity is, like I find a lot of a lot of creatives don't necessarily, they feel like they get to do what they do. And don't realize don't stop and maybe think about all the hours that they've spent in developing these very specific techniques and skills and abilities. That yes, are translating to something on the on the page or on the stage or, you know, in the in the arena, or whatever, wherever you are, but that they actually translate into a whole other slew of, of areas and that and it transforms the way that they see the world. And so that also kind of shows up in the way that they are with people and in what they're saying and what they're contributing to the world.

Lisa Smith 16:12

And so I wonder, sometimes, this is actually a little bit of a, it's not a push back, but I did want to, I'm sure like part of your business is talking with, you know, business professionals, those that are not artists to encourage creativity and to show them that they are creative. And that in in, you know, church circles, there's a lot of that to encouraging people you need, because we're saying you need to engage your creative abilities, and people are afraid of that. So we spent a lot of time encouraging them, yes, you are creative. But on the flip side of that, is, you know, those people who have spent a lot of time and energy developing those creative skills and abilities, and those also who are just kind of naturally, you have superpowers in that area. And I think sometimes, for artists, I'm finding that because there's so much encouragement that everyone is creative, they kind of forget that not everybody can do what they do, you know, like everybody, I, you know, everybody can do math, but I would have to work really hard to do it really well, you know, I have a certain level of ability, but then I have to work and I'd need to work with somebody like you to like, really build up my capacity for that. And so, yeah, I just wonder if you could talk a little bit about that about what's required to develop and why it's valuable.

Veronica Scarpellino 17:37

You just brought up again, you know, that's my utterances from a slew of things, too, but you know, you're talking about a level of mastery. Yeah, taking a strength that you innately have, and bringing that to mastery, which can lead to flow, that idea of just almost channeling, and not being able to not having to think about the muscle movements, the tool, because that's so ingrained in you, you get to go next level, to the idea and the process and think about each step along the way. And mastery can be gained in all kinds of domains, even outside of the creative arts.

Veronica Scarpellino 18:16

And you know, when you're talking about artists, and how everybody can be creative, I, you know, one of the things that I am careful about when I talk about creative thinking is that it's a thinking style. Art is one expression of creative thinking, but it is not the only expression. And so somebody can be very creative, but be a terrible artist. And somebody can be incredibly creative and be an amazing artist, right?

Veronica Scarpellino 18:46

So it's your area of expertise is also where you spend your time developing that sense of mastery, hopefully in a way that leans into your personal thinking style. So some of us are really good at, at, at what's called divergent thinking, where you can come up with a lot of ideas. And many artists and very creative people have no trouble coming up with ideas. In fact, they could give them all away and still have ovals pouring out of them. Right? For them. The challenge is which one do I choose first? And how do I start it? And how do I follow that through to execution? Yeah, so for the creatives that are really good at divergent thinking, that's the challenge that we work on together. How do you move toward actual execution, making this idea into reality? Then there's another thinking style that's really good at convergent thinking. And those are dealing with the facts and figures the reality and the practicality of things. And those you know, if you're ever talking to somebody about this great idea you have and they say Well, it's never been done before. So no, we can't do it, or we don't have the budget, or we won't get approval for that. There's somebody who's probably really good at convergent thinking. They're very practical, you need both, you need to be able to conceptualize and then drive forward. So for many of the people who are very good at convergent thinking, they can be creative within their domain, but maybe they can learn how to be a better divergent thinker.

Veronica Scarpellino 20:34

And I see a lot of people who talk about creativity, dwelling specifically around the idea of brainstorming, coming up with new ideas, new solutions, and that's great for the convergent thinkers, great artists, the great divergent thinkers, don't need to come up with more ideas. Got it enough with the ideas? And no, you can't do all of them at once. And you know, your finished beautiful idea has to start somewhere. Right. So those are the those are the two ways that I think about that. And that for those that feel like saying everybody's creative infringes on their identity, I would challenge them to say, that doesn't because you are expressing through your art, music, theater, writing creation, as opposed to these other thinking stuff.

Lisa Smith 21:30

Well, that then brings us to this idea of, of success, you know, you're talking about these divergent thinkers who have lots of great ideas. And, you know, you have great visions and hopes for what this baby that you have birth or our birthing is going to do out in the world. And, and even just sometimes, that's just that it's going to be meaningful and touch somebody. But it could be anything from that to I'm going to be famous, or you know, I'm going to have an exhibit in this space or whatever. I think for those in the arts industries, it can be challenging to define success, you know, to know like, there's this never ending wheel, it feels like sometimes of what you can do or what you need to do, in order to feel like you've accomplished something, feel like you've made an impact feel like you're successful. But it's not the same thing as selling a widget, necessarily. And I think sometimes it can be challenging, especially in the 21st century, in the United States to be, you know, in your gut, I would say most artists feel like if I just I create the thing, and I release it into the world, and somebody experiences it and enjoys it, like that was what it was meant for. God's gonna use that, however. But also there's like, how many followers on social media, you know, how many likes did I get? Is anybody talking about it? You know? Can you talk a little bit about how to think about success or impact in ways that maybe are helpful? And not paralyzing, especially for those in creative industries?

Veronica Scarpellino 23:20

Well, I think that my my personal story that I shared, when we started can help illustrate how an outside idea of what you're supposed to be, can really impact how you go about being that, you know, I was took, for me, it was the siloing of different different ways of being I loved science almost as much as I love art. But to be an artist was almost to not lean into science. So defining it for myself was really important.

Veronica Scarpellino 24:20

So I would say, success can't be defined for you, you have to define success for yourself. And that sounds great. But how do you do that? One of the first things that you can do real practical exercise, is figure out what you value. What's important to you. And there are a lot of wonderful tools online that you can go to, to, to go through values exercise, they usually start with a generated list of words that you you read, and you pick out the words that resonate for you. And not the words that you think are supposed to resonate for you. But the words that actually do Yeah, and you know, money is one of those things that is elusive at times. But pursuit of money itself is I mean, that's a pathway for pain. So why do you want the money underneath that your core value You may be something like personal freedom, it might mean safety, it might mean family. So underneath money or wealth is this idea of what your core value is. And when you release the specific idea, and go to the core value, that's your aspiration. That's what really drives you. That's the truth. And without that specific outcome, you'll find ways to fulfill that truth in an array of ways that may include money, but also includes something else.

Veronica Scarpellino 25:39

So that can start to help re reframe and change your mindset around what success might mean. I was reading a book that challenged me to redefine what wealth meant that it wasn't necessarily something that meant money. And autonomy over my time is an amazing source of wealth. time with my family, I have a small child that I want to spend quality time with. Yeah. That those are that's a really important element of what would mean for me to be wealthy. Yeah. And yes, like financial freedom and security for my family. Those are core values that drive everything else. That clarity can be a really strong guiding point for me, for anybody. Yeah, this the never ending wheel that you were describing, that she sing of the next thing that shows up everywhere, that shows up in every industry at all levels. And one of the methods that you can apply to stop the wheel is to reflect and to celebrate. Because if you were to sit down every week, and review all of your accomplishments small and large, and acknowledge how far you'd come in one week. That pressure to chase the next thing isn't so dire.

Lisa Smith 27:19

That is so huge. Celebration is, we talk about how bad at that we all are most of the time. Yes, Dan, I see your face is waiting for comment. What's going on there?

Dan ABH 27:32

It's very resonating to hear that. And I think you're 100% right, Veronica. Okay, first of all, we try to do this with the podcast. We're like, Okay, what's next? What's next? What's next? And then sometimes we'll pause every quarter to be like, okay, hold on, let's, let's have some successes here. Right? So and it feels really good to make you feel more grounded when you do that. And I'm a musician, and I'm in a few bands. But one of my main bands, we try to do this all the time and it is helping us as a band collectively, so all members in it. But yeah, that really resonates a lot. Yeah, I really love that you said. You give us the answer of like, what is the goals for success.

Dan ABH 28:20

But I do want to bring up the difficulty of what it takes to reach the goals for success. And like I always say, we get artists fatigue, you know what I mean? And so, here's a question for you. How do you know it's worth it? Like, how do you keep going, when it's hard when you have that artists fatigue, where you do the show or you do the thing, and then all sudden, the next day you have to upload things for syncing and do the marketing piece and do 50 hours of social media and all that I guess what I'm saying is that, how do you know when to quit? Or when to push through? That one's for me, Veronica.

Veronica Scarpellino 29:01

Should I try to go like big picture or just talk to you? So there's so many things that again, that you were saying that, that that jumped out. And you know, you have a show. And you want your instant gratification for how many people showed up and how many people are like dancing and applauding. And I will tell you, I'm one of those frustrating audience members who sits there quietly. But I'm taking it all in. So you know, back to that idea of the thinking styles, you know, you can't judge everybody's through the same filter. So you never know what your reach is because that quiet person in the back might be your biggest fan. So that's one thing.

There's also and whether you're putting on a big art exhibition, throwing a party, having a gig, there's that crash that happens afterwards. It's the you know, you have your anticipation you have the event itself. And often we don't give ourselves the attention necessary for the aftermath of it, and recognize that the arc of the emotions that goes through that is different for everybody. You might think of it as one stagnant event, but it's actually if you think of it, it's broken into three. The lead up, the anticipation, of preparation to like, go and have, you know, the after party. Introverts are like, don't talk to me. I'm gonna melt into a puddle as soon as the door closes, and I just need that time to process. And both are okay. Because they're, they're what you need.

But who else needs to be enlisted in this? Do you know? Are they somebody that you need to enlist for support? Because you need like, don't let me cancel. Because that period ahead of time, is where I have my anxiety, once I get through that upgrade, so don't indulge me and offer to cancel. Okay, that's one example. You're at the event, you have somebody who's keeping an eye on you, and they see that you're starting to get overwhelmed or that you need to be reined in. What can they do? And then that aftermath? How can you support each other to give each other that space in what you need? And where can you find that balance? So you know, that can help with the artists fatigue in the moment.

Yeah, we go to the next day, and you have your crash from what else? Am I going to anticipate you're not excited about uploading 50 files? Can you gamify it? What can you do that's within your strength to make it something a little bit more interesting until you can pull it off on somebody else, right? And so you can delegate it. There are a lot of what I call creative intelligence tactics that you need to deploy. And in my in my definition, because this is a phrasing that I'm using, for lack of better wording, creative intelligence is using your emotional intelligence, your self awareness and ability to self regulate, as the pathway to greater creative thinking. You can't think expansively and creatively about possibilities, and the future, if you're in survival mode. You're in fight, flight or freeze, you're in survival mode. But within that is information. What artist has not been immensely frustrated with the process? That frustration is actually crucial. So some of you want to avoid it. You want to use it, you want to learn from it, and you want to use it as a catalyst. Right? So creative intelligence is the synergy, the power of your emotions, powering your creative thinking, which in turn, generate emotions, which in turn, go into creative thinking.

Dan ABH 31:54

Yeah, I really love the way you explained. The whole process. It's like systematic, but like in a good way. Like it's systematic, where every, you know, the introvert and the extrovert and the beginning, the middle, the end, the after party. It's such a, it's so weird, because I feel like we try. Like, I think a lot of artists try to think that way until the thing is happening. And then when the thing is happening, it's like, amnesia, here comes a doubt, here comes the fatigue, here comes wasn't good enough, here, come here. And I mean, I really, really love what you said.

Veronica Scarpellino 32:28

It's a process. And it's not something that you figure out and never have to think about again. And like with anything, you're gonna suck at it at first, you're gonna fail, you're gonna fall flat on your face. But if you're able to reflect back on it and say, "Oh, that's where I went wrong", then you have a greater likelihood the next time it comes up to be like, "Oh, wait, this feels familiar". Now that I'm paying attention to it. Now that I'm paying attention to the number 23 I see it everywhere. Right now that I'm thinking about red cars. They're all over the place. Yeah, but I'm thinking about frustration. Wow. I didn't realize throughout the day, I get frustrated so much. What happens after?

Dan ABH 33:09

Yeah. It's very spiritual, in a sense. It's like reflection, discernment, you know?

Veronica Scarpellino 33:14

And an interesting thing is that if you can imagine a future event and what you want to have happen, your brain doesn't know that it didn't happen. So it's almost like you're practicing for it. And then when that event starts to happen, you're much more likely to do the thing you planned then to go with your old habitual pattern. But that's the thing. It's a habitual pattern, because they're hard to break. They're really ingrained. It's like the nether neuroscientists, that the neural pathways are like the beaten path of your brain, or the groups and a record, if you will, you're it's going, you're going to want to go down that path, right? It's just the least resistance, building a new one. If you start, if you start walking a new pathway through the woods, at first, it's going to be difficult, right? Over time, that will start to beat down and will become easier to walk in the old path will start to grow over. That's sort of like what happens in your head. So it takes time that that old path, that can I can be picked up again and reinforced very quickly.

Dan ABH 34:28

Yeah, let's not go that way.

Lisa Smith 34:30

Well, that's why it's so helpful to have tools and frameworks and structures that help you. Like, even I relate to that, because I'm a crash person at the end. But oh, three weeks ahead of time, I'm not thinking that. I have a lot of energy this week. So on my calendar, you know, I might schedule a bunch of stuff. And then I get there in that crash zone. And I have a full week. And I think, "Why did I do this to myself, and now I am dragging on, I just want to cancel everything." And I've started to observe that and try to be really disciplined, like, the calendar becomes a tool for me, you know, I will write on there, you know, nothing nothing, saying, you know, and I, so I'm wondering Yeah, other tools, like even people, I would think you kind of mentioned that of, of having the people around you sort of helping to encourage you to go down a particular path as opposed to a different one.

Veronica Scarpellino 35:29

Yeah, and sometimes the people you need the help from are the ones that ruffle your feathers the most. So one thing that you can do in that regard is to assume good intention. Right? And then, and understand they're not doing it to you. They're being themselves. And that they're different. They think, yeah. And when you're when you're interacting, having that communication before it's a crisis, before emotions are involved in it and saying, listen, next week, we have this thing coming up. And knowing myself and you've probably seen me do this, I'm going to have a little freakout for the two hours before and I'm going to want to fail. Let me do that. Here's what I need you to do. Give them the tools to support you. Or you know, after the event I really want to be able to go out and celebrate with everybody and I want you to be with me. You're like my one crash. So it's how can we both have what we need? Yeah, so maybe it's you go, I take 15 minutes to walk around the block quietly to decompress, and I'll come in and meet you when I have a chance to to catch my breath. I'm not avoiding you. I'm not uninterested in participating in the celebration. I just need to take a breath.

Lisa Smith 36:53

Yeah, this is all this is exactly what you were talking about before about taking this creative thinking skills and applying them in these other areas instead of feeling overwhelmed or at the mercy of circumstances or our emotions or whatever to identify, okay, here's the issue, how can I creatively come up with a solution to deal with it and, and, and feel like you have the permission and the freedom to deal with it however you need. Like I need a day to just be quiet and not talk to anybody. And I can calendar that and I can let people know or yeah, I can make these arrangements ahead of time with people for plans. That's, that's so good, just to be able to think about okay, again, like you said before, alright, I already have the skills, I just need to apply them in this in this situation as well.

Veronica Scarpellino 37:43

Right. And there are oodles of the skills that you already are good at. Right that can be applied elsewhere. Dan, I don't know what kind of music you play. But if you're a musician, you know that jazz musicians don't always have a set that they go with. And there is their own level of mastery. And they need to have in order to be good at their craft. But there's also a level of trust that they need to have in the other people. They also need to let go of ego and follow the music where it goes. And also stop thinking about it so much and go into flow.

Veronica Scarpellino 38:21

And the best jazz performances were never planned. So that's like walking out into the world. You're interacting with other people that you haven't been able to plan with. And so how are you going to interact with the world? Are you going to have, you know, a dance? Or are you going to have a fight? And so those are, those are different ways of, you know, analogy and metaphor are really powerful, creative thinking tactics, to take yourself out of your own emotional attachment to something, think about it in a new perspective. And suddenly, the solution becomes evident. So there's another creative thinking tactic, metaphor, which artists love, right?

Lisa Smith 39:08

Yeah. Yeah, that's so good.

Lisa Smith 39:12

Well, I know that you were actually leading a workshop on this a couple of weeks ago, and thinking about things that get in the way of feeling like we've accomplished or making that impact, I do think, I know, I have struggled with this idea of potential, of living up to my potential. And there have been times where I thought, Oh, I'm going to be that person at the end of my life, where after I die, people are gonna say, "Oh, she had so much potential... to bad she didn't live up to it." But that sometimes, and then other times, I'm like, Ah, there's this, you know, I want to get to this thing, but I have, you know, I can see the ultimate of everything, all the different pieces. But I am only one person, and I only have so much time. Talk to us a little bit about how potential plays into all of this.

Veronica Scarpellino 40:04

I have a new dreaded phrase, which is "Living up to your potential", because and this is not in any way reflection on what you were just saying. But I have seen time again, through clients at all levels of success, all levels of age, and seniority and expertise, struggle with their potential. And it becomes a game of your potential according to whom. Because when you have your whole life, people telling you who you're supposed to be and that's outside of you. That's, that's an outside expectation that doesn't speak to what your inner strengths, interest, desires, and values are. So you know, just like redefining what success means, you have to sit back and think about what does potential mean? Yeah, potential according to whom? What if it were potential according to you. And, you know, if your family, everybody ends up going into the family business. Maybe by not choosing not to go into the family business, you're not living up to the potential. But you're not interested in that business. You want to do something else, you want to work with people in a different way, you want to impact the world, you want to create beauty. And that doesn't you don't see that happening in what was predetermined. So are you really not living up to your potential or you're not living up to an external potential? Right. So that's like one of the big things.

Veronica Scarpellino 41:50

But then, yes, I think many of us would like to have greater impact on the world in a positive way. But you are only one person. So what can you do as an individual to leverage your influence? Because that's all you have? Yeah. You met invent And then that needs to start at a modest place, what is your current level of influence? And that can grow over time. And consistency, being consistent is the thing that will help you grow your influence because people will know what to expect from you. And then you become known as that and that is what is shared by other people because you need these other people to share your influence. So as a coach, I have a lot of different interests. I told you my interest in science, battle, my interest in creative arts and with that goes hypersensitivities for let's say the environment. I can't cure the environment.

Veronica Scarpellino 43:06

Well beyond controlling, you know what I've purchase, use and dispose of, the other thing in my role, what I can do is work with people who are talented in their domain, and help them be better at what they do. Help them solve their obstacles more effectively. Help them recognize how to stay true to what they need to, to not get distracted by these external forces. And if I can help those people be better at what they do then I'm contributing to that. I myself am not solving these problems. But you know, boy, I'd love to work with the people who are trying to save the bees. I'd love to work with the people who are trying to creatively and innovatively solve coral reef die out. There's things I can contribute to their thought process and their state of mind that can make them better at what they do. And that's what I can do. So I'm also really clear about where my strengths are. And I get to be creative in how I use them, and repurpose them and reframe them. I can't tell you how many different ways I have to talk about the work I do, depending on the audience, right? Do you know how many people, if I say, "creativity," they shut down immediately, because I'm not talking about them. When my whole point of talking about it is to say no, but I am, I'm talking about YOU.

Lisa Smith 44:42

I love the freedom that comes with the clarity around that, especially for people who do feel, you know, like, a lot of our audience are Christians and wanting to contribute, whether to contribute to the world in some way. And that feeling of things being so big, like you said, and to be able to have the clarity of, okay, these are my gifts, this is what I can do. And that idea, I love that of being able to inform and help and encourage or impact one person, two persons, three persons, whatever my little audience is, and that is contributing in the way that I'm able to contribute, I think is really, really helpful and powerful.

Lisa Smith 45:27

I think about Mother Teresa, I remember reading about her. And she, you know, she was very clear about what she was doing. She was helping individual people, one person at a time, whoever was in front of her, that's what she was attending to. And she frustrated, so many people because she would either just not take a meeting or skip a meeting or not be interested in a conversation about "You could make such a bigger difference if you started this institution, if you you know, were part of this foundation, if you you know, organized on a larger level, you would make such a bigger impact." And she chose consistently. No, because then I wouldn't be doing the thing that I can do. And that was a really powerful illustration of I think exactly what you're talking about. Because I think it is really easy as, certainly as easy for me to get distracted by the opportunities that come along that sound good, sound like they're going to present more opportunities sound like they would be more effective. But then I noticed Oh, but I'm not doing that thing that I was that I'm like really skilled at that I really love to do any more.

Veronica Scarpellino 46:40

We like to measure things, we like to track things. We need metrics. But yeah, not everything can be measured.

Lisa Smith 46:50

Thank you so much for this conversation, Veronica. It's just, I feel like it's chock full of really practical helpful things to consider and think about. I know that you work with clients. If there's somebody who is looking for coaching, is that something that you have available? Or how would somebody get in touch with you to connect more?

Veronica Scarpellino 47:11

Yes, I do. I do have a little bit of capacity to take on some new clients right now. And so if they would like to be in touch, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, or through my website, which is www.goldfinchleadership.com. And I offer everybody who comes to me a complimentary call to figure out if what they need is what I can help with. I also have a an e-book that can be downloaded for free on midlife career transitions through creative intelligence. And it's a roadmap for doing some of these exercises that we've been talking about, like discovering your core values, identifying what it is that you want to be spending your time on for your own legacy. And what does legacy mean? Sort of like "What is success" and the different elements of a transition? And really, prizing each one, including the in between. So that's my gift to the world, to offer that.

Lisa Smith 48:18

Thank you so much for this really wonderful conversation. It's been great talking.

Veronica Scarpellino 48:22

Thank you, you let me geek out on my favorite topics.

Dan ABH 48:26

I'm geeking out to just talking to you.

Veronica Scarpellino 48:29

And there we go. There's the answer you guys.

Dan ABH 48:33

Thanks for listening to Be.Make.Do. a soul|makers podcast. If you want to go deeper, be sure to visit soulmakers.org and download a free Wise Hearted Ones study guide with questions for personal reflection or discussion with a group, plus word studies and more.