Podcast Episodes

Hey, Lisa, Hey, Dan, this wise hearted ones series is awesome. I'm having such a good time with it, I want to spend a little bit more time with it. Maybe we should create something...

That's a great idea. Maybe something like a study guide.

Dan ABH 0:15

A study guide. Yeah, that sounds awesome. Where would I get that at?

Lisa Smith 0:19

Well, actually, if you go over to soulmakers.org/bemakedo you can download a free wise hearted ones study guide right now. It's got lots of great questions, some word studies and a little bit of commentary for you, and maybe a group of people to go through together.

Dan ABH 0:37

That's awesome. Guess what I'm going to do right now? What are you going to do? I'm going to soulmakers.org/bemakedo

Lisa Smith 0:45

and download your free study guide.

Lisa Smith 0:58

Hello, welcome to Be.Make.Do. a soulmakers podcast where we explore what it takes to live out your call in the arts with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom. I'm your host, Lisa Smith, here with my producer, Dan ABH. Hello everyone. And it is our passion to encourage you to become who you were created, to be, make what you were created to make and do what you were created to do. And this summer, we are kind of going back and thinking about some of the things that have come up in the wise hearted ones series. And a big part of that is what it looks like for artists to serve as leaders, and why what we make matters on a larger scale. And we are thrilled to have Mandy Smith back with us again to talk a little bit about her newest book. Mandy Smith is a pastor, award-winning author and speaker. She's a regular contributor to Christianity Today, and Missio Alliance and the author of The Vulnerable Pastor and Unfettered. Her newest book, Confessions of an Amateur Saint: the Christian Leader's Journey From Self sufficiency To Reliance on God is just coming out, and we are really pleased to be able to have you with us here today, Mandy, to talk about your book and to talk about leadership, especially leadership in the 21st century in spiritual communities. So welcome.

Mandy Smith 2:21

Thanks for having me. It's so good to be back with you again.

Lisa Smith 2:24

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like you've been busy since the last time we talked.

Mandy Smith 2:30

You know, it's so funny, though, because I don't, I mean, all that sounds kind of impressive when you mentioned the books I've written, most of them were just like, I have to figure this out, and maybe it would be helpful to somebody else. You know, it's, it's almost like the kind of thing that I can't do anything else until I get these things out of me somehow, which I think is probably true for many creatives, that it's just kind of burning a hole in your heart until you can figure out what this thing is, out of either frustration or joy or a bit of both, you know? So this book especially feels, feels very much that way.

Lisa Smith 3:04

Really, so it was something that you've been struggling with or chewing on for a while.

Mandy Smith 3:09

Yeah, it began with about 40 or 50 or 60 different confessions that I was just journaling every morning out of my own frustration and longing for God in a kind of crisis season, and at some point realized, oh, maybe this would be helpful for other people to see behind the scenes of what what leaders wrestle with to be able to stay true to the things that they claim. I mean, of course, I've edited it since. I've changed some names, that kind of thing, but, but it's, it actually feels a little funny to think that this is being published now, because for a year or two I was writing it without realizing I was writing a book, you know. So, yeah, sometimes you just can't not do something.

Lisa Smith 3:55

Well, it's such a beautiful title too Confessions of an Amateur Saint. And I think about immediately, as you're talking about writing confessions, I'm thinking about Augustine's confessions, and when I read that book, and then actually I read it in seminary, we were invited to write our own confessions in that space. And it really was powerful to kind of look back on my journey and put it through that lens and think about it from a sphere. So why did you choose that title, and where did, where did this whole idea?

Mandy Smith 4:25

Well, interestingly, it actually started as a project that I was doing for my, my Dmin at Eugene Peterson Center at Western Seminary, which is an amazing program, if anybody is interested and they have such a space for creativity, because imagination was such a big thing for Eugene Peterson. And so there it was actually called Confessions Of A Secular Saint. And so part of the amateur and the secular, they both are good for different reasons. The secular piece, because this is about confessing, how even as Christian leaders, we bring our, our secular habits of professionalism into our work. And usually, to be a professional in the rest of the world means to be pretty self sufficient and to have all the answers yourself.

Mandy Smith 5:12

And so that theme of professionalism comes up. And what does it mean to be a Christian professional? And so, of course, then amateur is an important word as well, to somehow be tapping into the thing that we knew before this was our job, and that connection to God, which actually fuels what is now our job, which is a very strange situation to be in. So it's not a confession of sin in the usual kind of juicy way. Maybe, maybe my readers will be disappointed about that. I don't sin in a lot of, like vice kinds of ways, but I am really sinful when it comes to depending on myself. And I think that's the core of every sin, you know. So, so the amateur and the secular both are about knowing our dependence on God again, and so the confessions are both confessing the ways that I on a daily basis, even though I think and talk about this all the time, on a moment by moment basis, when there's an anxious moment, my first reaction is, how do I fix that? You know?

Mandy Smith 6:22

And so I'm confessing all the ways I just want to feel successful, I just want to be in control. I just want to force outcomes. I just want to see miracles, you know. I just want to feel strong. Those things are deep in us. And I do think it's a secular habit. And so I'm confessing in very practical ways, the ways that I'm tempted to go in those directions, and then the other meaning of confession, of confessing faith again. So at the end of each confession of turning from God, there's a confession of faith again. It says, Even if I can't see it yet, I'm choosing to trust you in this impossible situation. So yeah, I hope that that is somehow helpful to folks who are feeling all of those tensions as well.

Lisa Smith 7:07

Yeah, I love that. A couple years ago, I really latched on to the word confession. As for me, something about just confessing the truth to God about where I am. You know, to just be able to say, God, I confess. I'm too tired. You know, I confess I don't want to do this. I don't want to do what you want me to do, or I don't want I confess that I don't want to go to work today, or whatever it is. And the the freedom that came with that level of honesty, again, like you said, not so much confessing sin, but just confessing truth. You know, where my where I am, versus where I want to be, or should be, or need to be, or that kind of stuff. It's, yeah, I think confession is a really powerful it is a powerful thing in a relationship.

Mandy Smith 7:55

Absolutely. And so many of the Psalms that begin that way turn into thanksgiving and praise. You know, that's actually a part of the process. I think we we feel like, oh, I shouldn't be thinking this, or I shouldn't be feeling this, so I'm just going to go over here and figure it out by myself, and then come back to God when I'm in a better place. But what a resource we have that God Himself is the one who he can take it, you know, for us to just feel like, this is ugly, this is gross. I'm confused. I'm showing you wherever I am Lord and trusting that maybe even in the outpouring, I'll turn a corner and discover God has not forsaken me. And there is a there is a resource that I had forgotten there, you know?

Lisa Smith 8:36

Well, so what was it that I know this was something that you were thinking about in wrestling, but what did you feel? What kind of led you to say, Okay, this is a book that other people might really be able to benefit from as well. What do you what are you kind of hoping?

Mandy Smith 8:49

I think it was just realizing how much we're all in a pioneering kind of moment in the church in the West, and so I'm in a I've been in a very pioneering kind of context in my local ministry. And I'm not a natural pioneer. I'm a settler at heart. And so, you know, I think I'm the kind of person where, if you put me somewhere for 40 years, give me, give me some people to love. I'm like, great, you know. But every single situation I've been has had a significant pioneering kind of element and and so a lot of this, a lot of these confessions, have come from all the ways I felt in over my head and just unsure of the outcomes. You know, it's very hard to to cast a vision for something that you haven't seen yet, you know, but that's kind of the job.

Mandy Smith 9:37

And so I, I just as I was talking to friends and just watching trends in the church in the West at the moment, noticing how much, partly because of covid stuff and political stuff, but partly just also the significant changes in the Western Church with post Christian kind of turn. And I think, honestly, the US is having a whiplash moment, you know, so growing up in Australia, and, you know, having lived in the UK, and other people I talk to who are in Canada or New Zealand or South Africa, you know, like there are ways that those places all have something in common, where there's been a post Christian kind of reality for a very long time, even growing up in the 70s, that was just kind of the way it was. But then it was crazy for me when I moved to the US in the 80s and and realizing, like, oh, this cultural Christianity is a is a thing here. I've just now recently moved back to the to Australia, and, you know, so it was, I was in the US through the 80s, 90s, 2000s and and, you know, my husband was teaching in a seminary, so we got to watch 17 to 21 year olds through that 25 year season. And significant change in culture, where there just is such a shift now in in the church and in people's just the whole thing, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. And then, of course, the crisis. So there's a crisis happening in the culture, but then there's a crisis happening in the church as well, where some of the things we used to do just don't do anymore. There's so many, you know, headlines about abuse in the church and all kinds of things. So I think you know exactly I don't need to go on. You know what I'm talking about. So I just thought, well, many of my friends, many of my students are are experiencing pioneering kind of moment of their own. And so, you know, I'm happy to share this, if it's helpful in any way.

Lisa Smith 11:43

Well, I think it's I was thinking about how this kind of connects with our audience of primarily artists and creatives, some in, quote, unquote, in ministry, and others, just in, in the creative industries, wherever they are. But one of the things that we are big proponents of, at for Be.Make.Do and soulmakers, is that artists are called to serve as leaders, or at least some of us are, but that that really art is a leadership thing that we we lead through these cultural artifacts and experiences and experimentations. It's always been the case that artists are on the forefront of new movements and breaking, you know, open things for the wider public. And a lot of stuff starts way, way, way conceptually upstream that you know, then, you know, filters down and and I think, you know, some of, some of what we're trying to do is to think about, okay, if we are aware of this and we own that a little bit, how can we prepare ourselves to be leaders, especially as Christians, in the spaces that we're in, in non tradition, not the ways that you typically think of a leader? You know the person up front who says, Do this, do that, or this is what we think, and this is what we do. And here, let's go this place, but more leaders of imagination and ideas and experiences that that help to kind of in a soft leadership, shape shape culture, shape people's experiences of things.

Lisa Smith 13:15

And I think it's an interesting time, because I do believe that artists are being called by God to serve as leaders in and outside of the church, and a lot of times, without permission, you know, or you know, without you know, proper ordination around that because, you know, we live in such a media driven culture society that there are things that people in those spaces can say and do that, or maybe they have the ear or the eyes of people in a way that maybe traditional institutions just don't right now, and I've seen there's some work out of there's something called the Sacred Design Lab, which came out of a project at Harvard Divinity School, which was looking at these different ways that religious leadership is kind of being de facto, sort of popping up in places like your gym, your book club, you know, your the preschool circle, or whatever, that the people who are who are sort of hosting those spaces end up being de facto spiritual leaders. And how do we equip those people to be in those spaces that typically are taken on by church groups, but people aren't necessarily looking always to church groups now for that kind of leadership. So I kind of feel like your book really is appropriate for for thinking about these non traditional leadership styles and how to how to survive and thrive in that space.

Mandy Smith 14:47

There's so much healing to be done there, personally and across the church, I think. And it's interesting, because I do think God is doing that kind of work in me, even at the moment. Yes, and I don't know where it's headed, but I feel like he keeps inviting me to not keep art as just a hobby that I do on the side, but to let it leak in. And you know, if I was only ministering to artists, that would be easy, but I think I'm always worried that, oh, I'm going to do something that's going to exclude somebody, or people think art is this woo woo thing that's only for certain people, and I never ever want to do that. But at the same time, there are some sensibilities that I think artists bring that are really essential right now, and that I think are disarming at a time when, you know, people outside of the church are often turned off by the belligerent way that Christians have behaved, or the abusive way.

Mandy Smith 15:45

Then within the church, there's a lot of baggage with leadership that looks a certain way and and so art just kind of sets aside some of that, because, you know, it feels like you're sharing something of yourself. And so it is a beautiful thing to watch, especially in a post Christian kind of context, where we're kind of over dogmatic stuff, and we're over, uh, abusive, top down kind of leadership. And so artists have have this way of, you know, I'm just, well, this is what this book is. It's just like, I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm not telling you what to think. I'm sharing what is meaningful to me, what's saving me, and there's actually visual art in there, as in addition to my writing, which I hope is a form of art and and I'm happy to share that, and hope that it connects with other people, but I don't need to force it upon them.

Lisa Smith 16:43

Well, is that, does that kind of go into the arena of you talk about these leaders as pioneers, these people who may, may not, have been had space to be in leadership before, and sort of having to navigate certain dynamics or issues? What are some of the things that you get into the in the book about that?

Mandy Smith 17:03

It's interesting that you say that actually, because I'm thinking all leaders are pioneers, just because the church is changing so significantly. But as you said, that way, I'm just realizing maybe those who have had to be pioneers in other contexts before actually, like this is something that we bring to the church artists might actually have this skill of like experimentation there that brings something fresh to folks who are freaking out because they're used to things being kind of in control anyway. That was just like a moment as I was listening to you, what was the question again?

Lisa Smith 17:38

Well, I was, I was just kind of asking about some of the the issues that these pioneers, or maybe in this pioneering moment, that that they're having to navigate, and what you kind of talk to in your book.

Mandy Smith 17:53

So I think it's really this crisis that we experience in ourselves where to be a professional, as I said earlier, means to kind of be on top of things, and we can try that for a really long time. In my experience, it has never actually helped for me to just work harder and think more and read more books and go to more conferences and all the things that we try. Maybe somebody else has discovered how to make make it to the top of the palette.

Mandy Smith 18:18

I'm glad to know it didn't work for you either.

Mandy Smith 18:22

And it just crushes your spirit, right? This is this performance pressure that actually disconnects us from the source of life and creativity. And so I, I draw this picture in there of, you know, there's this image throughout all of Scripture, in Jeremiah 17, in Psalm 1, in in Genesis, in Revelation, this image of a tree that's roots go down to the stream and and whose leaves are always green, and for the healing of the nations, who's bearing fruit every season, many kinds of fruit, in some cases, you know. And it doesn't point to itself. You know, there's, there's actually a contrast in the Jeremiah passage, where there's a shrub in the desert that is all dry and parched because, and it says because it has relied on humans, and the one that the tree, on the other hand, that's by the stream, they're living in the same kind of arid place, but one of them as depending on a stream, and is letting their roots stretch out deep and be nourished by something outside of itself.

Mandy Smith 19:26

And so I drew this strange kind of image of a tree that was trying to be self sufficient, like it's such a beautiful image for a tree's leaves and roots to stretch out, both giving something but taking in from outside of itself, and anytime that we're faced with a major challenge or a job that feels too much for us, it's just a normal secular instinct to look inside of ourselves for resources. But if a tree's roots went back into itself, if a tree's branches turned back into itself, then it would just dry up within, I don't know, an hour, you know, all that nourishment from outside of itself. And this is similar to what Jesus says when he talks about the vine and the branches, you know, he says, If you disconnect from the vine, there's not going to be much sap in you, and you're not going to be good for anything.

Mandy Smith 20:15

And so I think we can also do that kind of backwards, personally and with the church, like, there's a lot of drying up that I see in the church around the world. Yeah, and, and I think we think, well, we just have to work harder. Has God forgotten us? Is the Gospel not good news anymore? Is the spirit not with us anymore? And it makes us work harder and try new strategies and, and I think it's actually an interesting diagnostic of like in every place where where we personally are just drying up, or where, and no judgment. Like, if you're burned out, this is, you know, not a judgment thing. It's just a good assessment of, like, if I'm drying up, maybe I just need to take a nap. But if a whole life is drying up, or if a whole congregation is drying up, or if a whole movement is is drying up, is there some way we need to reconnect, like, if we disconnected from the sap that is actually like, Do we really believe that God is the source of everything that we need, personally and as as a movement across the world?

Mandy Smith 21:14

All the creativity, all the energy, all of the goodness, all of the joy, is there, if we will just stop trying so hard to be self sufficient. And, and this is, this is coming from my own experience. The last couple of years have been one of the most difficult seasons of my life and ministry, personally and and in the in the context of my actual work, and I have had seasons where I'm just like, I have no ideas. I have no energy. How can I even do this? I'm I'm so discouraged, and how am I supposed to cast a vision for anybody else when I just feel like this is too much, and it makes no sense, but to somehow even in the middle of that, like it's not like, it's not like, okay, I sorted out on my problem so that I could then go and rest in the Lord. No, like every single day I go down to the riverbank, and I'm so grateful that I can walk to a riverbank from my house, and I remember that tree whose roots go down to the river, and I draw on something that is outside of myself. And even though I leave that riverbank still with no idea of what the day is going to hold and what all the answers are, I just tell the Lord, whatever the next good thing is, I'll do it. Just tell me, that's all I can do.

Mandy Smith 22:30

And after many, many, many, many days of that kind of response, there is, there is life coming in me like I've never known before. It makes no sense I should be exhausted and worn out, but I'm writing and I'm making art, and I'm dreaming of things that just have been released because of that connection to the Lord. And there was life in in this little congregation that was, I think was really just about to close when I came and not only has it, like, grown in numbers, the spirit of this place has just a different it's a different place. And I can't take the credit for that, you know? I've, I've done my part. Of course, it's been incredibly hard work, but, but there is a, there is a river whose dream makes us glad, you know?

Mandy Smith 23:19

And I get it, like I still am tempted to see, oh, if people don't come it's a reflection on me. Instead of thinking, like, are they doing okay today, I'm wanting that, I'm wanting those numbers to be about, oh, this thing finally was successful. And so, I mean, it's not about getting over it entirely, but I think it is about just being aware and and trying to catch that, you know, this, I think that's, that's what I'm trying to do here is, is name the instinct, name the moment in ourselves, where we turn that way instead of that way. You know, because we have all these headlines in the news about leaders doing stupid things, and I think any of us could become that person like I don't think it's a particular kind of person. There's some contexts that put particular kinds of people into leadership and then create an environment which just fosters this narcissism, you know. So I think any person put in that context would turn that way. But I'm really interested in in all the different decisions that happen way before somebody does the really obvious, stupid thing that splits a church or a denomination.

Mandy Smith 24:26

And that's what these moments are in these confessions is, is just naming that. Oh, it's 11 o'clock at night on a Sunday night, I'm still not feeling good about my sermon. People are coming in the morning, you know. And what do I do, you know? Or there's a crisis in my family that is taking all of my emotional energy. And not only do I not have energy to think about my ministry, I don't even know where God is right now. Like is it time for me to just go away for a while, or if I'm still going to lead this place, how do I do that with faithfulness?

Mandy Smith 25:06

And we all have those moments every single day, many times a day. You know, if my emails are piling up, I feel like a bad leader, because I haven't got to respond to those emails. If I don't have enough emails, I feel like a bad leader because I'm not engaged enough, you know, like, right? Every single thing can feel it's, it's spiritual warfare, actually, you know, like the enemy uses everything to distract us. And so I think we need to be wise about that. And just aware, you know, this is, I love Jesus, temptations in the wilderness. I don't love his temptations. I love the story because it's, it's those behind the scenes moments that decide, okay, do I turn to the Lord or do I turn to all the other things?

Lisa Smith 25:53

That focus on being faithful in the moment. I love that idea of just noting the moment where you have the choice to turn, turn one way or the other. That's, that's that can be really powerful. Does that tie into, um, you talk about in the book about the the 70 internal desires that can often overwhelm Christian leaders? Talk about some of those.

Mandy Smith 26:17

The chapters are kind of named for the major confessions of, yeah, I just want to I just want to feel in control. I just want to know the outcomes. I just want to force miracles. I just want to feel successful. I mean, I think we all feel these things right, and people in Scripture felt these things, and sometimes they even got it wrong, and God worked anyway. Like, this is not about being perfect, but I think it's, it's an opportunity to just to ask. It's a way, I mean, (my website is called the way is the way for this reason), because the way we do things shapes the way things happen in our work and in our congregations, and in our lives.

Mandy Smith 26:20

And so even if I'm, even if I'm preaching the exact same sermon, if I'm preaching it out of or whatever, whatever the obvious outcome of my work is, if I'm doing it out of a particular motive, it's gonna, it's just going to feel different. And I think actually this is part of where being an artist is informing my leadership, because as an artist, you know that the way that you do it shapes what the product is, you know. And I think this is the, this is a major dynamic that artists feel in a business oriented leadership model is that artists are very interested in the process, almost too much sometimes. Look at the way the paint is just dripping! That is too cool, you know. But the fact is, an artist can look at the final product, and it tells a story of how it was made and so sometimes I think folks who lead in a more business style don't realize that they're communicate like it's just like it screams to me, even though nobody's saying I don't really trust in God, I'm really anxious here, like I can hear those messages through the between the lines in certain kinds of leadership.

Mandy Smith 28:20

And so I think this is what I'm just embracing, is that I just went to an art workshop on the weekend, and most of the time, we were just experimenting with the ways different inks and paints move on, on different papers and different, you know, brushes and things that we were using to to create the lines, how each one makes a different kind of a shape. And so I actually wanted to show you one thing that I think is super cool that is connected here, that not a piece of art. One of the things that this beautiful art instructor has made for us, this is called, I'll show it close. This is called a cola pen, and it's just a piece because it's from a like a cola can, a Coke can. She's taken the metal from a can and made the nib for it and then strapped it with a piece of string and glue to a stick, which looks pretty rudimentary, right?

Mandy Smith 28:21

And you know, you could look down your nose at it, but the funny thing about it, you know, it's like a dip pen, so you put that in ink, and then you can write with it. But it actually, because the metal of the can is actually very flexible, it makes it almost impossible to control what's actually happening. And sometimes it makes a thin line, sometimes it makes a fat line. Sometimes it like skips across the paper and leaves drips everywhere. That feels like the opposite of what you want when you're making art, like you want to really control it.

Mandy Smith 29:53

I've always worked with like a what do they call like a Sharpie? You know, there's something really satisfying about a Sharpie because you feel like I have total control over it, but the line feels kind of actually almost too perfect, like it feels industrial, like it's predictable and it's very perfect. Doesn't feel human, you know, and you know, there's nothing wrong with Sharpies. This is just a metaphor. I still love my Sharpies, but, but working with this has been really interesting to me. It's a metaphor of how we work as human beings, that anything that we try to do, you know, we we look more like this as humans than we look like Sharpie. You know, we're just kind of unique, and we have weaknesses and and with the pen like this, that weakness becomes a potential and possibility.

Mandy Smith 30:42

And so when I'm trying to paint a picture, you know, so many of the things that I'm creating in art are about processing messy things, but if I'm using a perfect Sharpie pen, the line, even the kind of line that I'm using, is communicating the opposite of what I'm trying to do. And so it's been really satisfying. There's one of the pieces of art that's in the book is Jesus in Gethsemane, and it was so satisfying to draw him. He's just lying flat. I'm drawing him with this cola pen, and it's skipping and it's leaving smudges, and it's leaving drips, but, oh, it just felt, it felt so good, because we're dealing with Jesus in anguish on the ground before his Father, you know?

Mandy Smith 31:31

Somehow that feels similar to the work of leadership, that the way that we make the lines, the decisions that we make, the way we make decisions, the conversations we have, the way we leave behind the scenes. Not that I've got this perfect by any means, but I want to be thoughtful of if this is good news, we have to present it in a way that truly comes from a good place, you know, from a whole place.

Mandy Smith 31:59

I'm tired of the good news being presented in mean ways. And if this is, if this is coming from a deep trust in the God who's got it all, who's the Lord of the universe, it can't be communicated in an anxious way, because it's the opposite, like it's it's undermining the very message that we.

Mandy Smith 32:17

But to become people who truly feel the goodness of the good news, and who truly trust that takes our whole lives. You know, I'm not saying that this is okay now we've fixed that so but maybe even the maybe even, I think this is what I'm coming around to finish my question, my answer here you can, as a professional look polished in your acknowledgement of your need for a power beyond yourself. In fact, I think that is actually what a professional Christian leader is supposed to be good at, is acknowledging that they need something beyond themselves. You can look pretty polished, still just declaring with joy and freedom. So I'm, you know, I'm declaring that to you now. I can't do this. You know, my my job is not to be God. My job is to share the ways I'm trusting the Lord and invite others to follow. And so that's probably what part of this book is. Is not saying, like, I've got it all figured out, but like, this is what it looks like for one leader to follow. And if it's helpful to you, I hope that it helps you follow too.

Lisa Smith 33:20

I love that illustration of the cola pen. I think that's that's really a great way of talking about the way that the way that you lead the process itself, is as much about how it all turns out as as whatever the final product is. And it makes me think about something we've been considering as well. For artists, and I think especially artists of faith, there tends to be a desire for something to happen with what I've created. It to impact somebody in some way, to be meaningful in some way. The impact is being left along the way, in those trails of drip and imperfections, as much as whatever that final picture might be that like you really can't control what it finally looks like, but being willing to to almost be be a little messy, be a little be vulnerable and trusting God with that impact is, is a different way to be.

Lisa Smith 34:22

This is a really, a really wonderful book, and I, and I think it is such a great resource for people. I think that this is certainly a time. I mean, I know I have definitely battled my own burnout times and and continue to struggle with with some of the things that we've talked talked about. So it's so great to have, I guess it's it's almost like having conversation partners. When you get to pick up a book and read that somebody understands where you're coming from and has some some wisdom and some shared stories, it gives you comfort and also encourages to, you know, pick up and try, try a new way. So thank you for for writing it. Appreciate that.

Mandy Smith 35:08

Yeah, I pray that it's a blessing in some way.

Lisa Smith 35:10

Thank you so much for taking time to talk with us about your book and to update us on what's going on with you. I'm excited for for it, when will it be coming out?

Mandy Smith 35:20

Confessions comes out in October. Perfect, wonderful. We look forward to seeing that. And you can, you can pre order it now.

Lisa Smith 35:27

And where can people pre order?

Mandy Smith 35:30

It's on the Nav press website, but also on Amazon and anywhere that you buy books. I try to encourage people to go to Hearts and Minds bookstores, which is a wonderful ministry bookstore. I think it's just one store, but he has a website, and you can order through him as well, just to support his wonderful work. He's there in Pennsylvania, I believe. But he has a website. You can order online. So if you're wanting to support a local, independent family run Christian bookstore, Hearts and Minds is amazing.

Lisa Smith 36:02

Wonderful, we'll put the link to that in in the show notes, so that people can can go there. Well, thank you again. Mandy, this has been a really wonderful conversation, and I look forward to continuing to read whatever you write.

Mandy Smith 36:15

So good to be with you.

Lisa Smith 36:16

Thank you.

Dan ABH 36:19

Thanks for listening to Be.Make.Do. a soulmakers podcast. If you want to go deeper, be sure to visit soulmakers.org and download our free wise hearted ones study guide with questions for personal reflection or discussion with a group, plus word studies and more.